[Par-reg] Parshat Va'yeshev - shiur

[Menachem Leibtag]

*************************************************************
        THE TANACH STUDY CENTER [http://www.tanach.org]
		In Memory of Rabbi Abraham Leibtag
	Shiurim in Chumash & Navi by Menachem Leibtag
*************************************************************

            PARSHAT VA'YESHEV  -  Who Sold Yosef? 

    Could it be that the brothers DID NOT sell Yosef! 
    As shocking as this statement may sound to anyone familiar
with the story of Yosef & his brothers; a careful reading of
that narrative in Chumash may actually support this
possibility!
    In the following shiur, we explore this fascinating
possibility (and its consequences) while taking into account
some important geographic considerations.

INTRODUCTION
	After throwing your brother into a pit to die, would
you be able to 'sit down to eat'?  The brothers did, so the
Torah tell us (see 37:24-25)!  But when they sat down to eat,
the Torah DOES NOT inform us if they sat NEAR the pit,
listening to Yosef's screaming and pleading; OR if they sat
FAR AWAY from the pit - to enjoy some 'peace and quiet'?
	So what difference does it make?

	Believe it or not, this tiny detail affects our
understanding of almost every aspect of the story that ensues.
Our shiur will entertain each possibility - showing how this
'missing detail' may be what leads several commentators to
conclude that the brothers may never have sold Yosef after
all!
	To appreciate why this 'minor detail' is so critical,
we must first review the Torah's description of these events,
making sure that we understand what everyone is planning, so
that we can reach a logical conclusion regarding what everyone
should be doing.
    Before we begin, we must also point out that the distance
between Hebron, where Yaakov is living, and Dotan, where the
brothers are grazing their sheep, is about 100 kilometers.
Therefore, the brothers are probably gone for at least several
weeks.  Certainly, they don't come home to Hebron to sleep at
night, rather, they have set up a temporary 'campsite' in the
Dotan area.

PLAN A - THE BROTHERS  /  FIRST DEGREE MURDER
	Review 37:18-20, noting that as soon as Yosef arrives
at Dotan, the brothers conspire to kill him.  However, their
plan concerning HOW to kill him is revised several times.  
    To show how, let's begin with the brothers' original plan
to kill Yosef, as soon as they saw him [which we will refer to
PLAN A]:
"They (the brothers) saw him from afar, and before he came
close... they conspired to kill him.  And they said to one
another, behold the 'dreamer' is coming.  Now, let's kill him
and (afterward) throw his body into one of the pits..."
(37:18-20).

 	Note how the brothers originally plan to commit first
degree murder, by killing Yosef immediately and then 'bury
him' in any nearby pit.  Most likely, they plan to throw the
'body' in the pit in order to 'hide the evidence'.  This way,
when they next come home, they can simply pretend that they
never saw Yosef - for if they brought home the dead body,
their father would likely have accused them of Yosef's murder.

	Although Reuven opposes Yosef's murder, he assumes
that the brothers would not accept his opinion.  Therefore,
instead of arguing with his brothers, he devises a shrewd plan
that will first postpone Yosef's execution, and later enable
him to secretly rescue Yosef, and send him back home to his
father.
	[See further iyun for an explanation of why
specifically Reuven wants to save Yosef.]

PLAN B - REUVEN'S PLAN  /  SECOND DEGREE MURDER
	As you read Reuven's plan, be sure to differentiate
between what Reuven SAYS (to his brothers) and what Reuven
THINKS (to himself):
"... And Reuven said... 'Do not shed blood, cast him into a
pit [in order that he die] OUT IN THE 'MIDBAR' (wilderness),
but do not touch him yourselves --'
[End of quote! Then, the narrator continues by informing the
reader of Reuven's true intentions...]
	"in order to save him [Yosef] from them and return him
to his father." (37:22). 

	Reuven's 'official' plan (that the brothers accept) is
to let Yosef die in a less violent manner, i.e. to throw him
alive into a deep pit to die, instead of murdering him in cold
blood.  However, Reuven's secretly plans to later return to
that pit and free him.
	Note how Reuven even suggests the specific 'pit' into
which to throw Yosef - "ha-bor HA-ZEH asher ba-midbar"!  Most
probably, so that he can later sneak away to that pit and save
him.
[Compare this to the brothers' original plan to throw him into
"one of the pits" (37:20) - possibly a pit closer by.]

	Unaware of Reuven's true intentions, the brothers
agree. 
	Yosef arrives, and - in accordance with PLAN B - the
brothers immediately strip Yosef of his special cloak and
throw him alive into the pit (see 37:23-24).  Afterward, the
Torah informs us, they sit down to eat (see 37:25).  

WHERE ARE THEY EATING?
 	Until this point, the plot is clear.  However, in the
story that follows, there are two important details missing
which totally affect our understanding of what happened next.
	Detail #1 -  WHERE did they sit down to eat?
Did they sit down to eat nearby the pit, or did they just
leave Yosef in pit, and travel far away (possibly, back to
their camp in Dotan) and eat their meal elsewhere?

	Detail #2 - WHERE is REUVEN during this meal?
Is he eating with his brothers, or did he go off to somewhere
else on his own? [And if so, for what reason?]

    Even though there are no explicit  answers in the Torah to
these two questions, we will attempt to answer them by
employing some 'deductive reasoning'.

(1) Where are the brothers eating?
    Recall that the brothers are grazing their sheep in the
Dotan area [see 37:17/ today the area of Jenin, between
Shechem and Afula], which is on the northern slopes of central
mountain range of Israel.  The "midbar" [wilderness], that
Reuven is talking about, is probably located a few kilometers
to the east of Dotan, as this "midbar" stretches along the
eastern slope of the entire central mountain range. [See map
www.tanach.org/map3d.pdf .]
    
    Considering that the brothers throw Yosef into a pit 'out
in the MIDBAR', it would definitely make sense for them to
return afterward to their campsite in the Dotan area to eat
(see 37:16-17).   Besides, it would not be very appetizing to
eat lunch while listening to your little brother screaming for
his life from a pit nearby - see 42:21 for proof that he was
indeed screaming when they threw him in. 
    And even should one conclude that it would have been just
as logical for them to have sat down to eat near the pit;  by
considering the whereabouts of Reuven (detail #2) - we will be
able to provide additional support to our supposition that the
brothers must have sat down to eat farther away.  

2) Where is Reuven?
    Considering that Reuven's real plan is to later save Yosef
from the pit, it would only be logical from him to either stay
near the pit, or at least remain with his brothers (wherever
they may be). Certainly it would not make sense, according to
his real plan, for him to go far away, and to leave his
brothers by the pit!
    However, from the continuation of the story we know for
sure that Reuven did not stay near the pit, because he RETURNS
to the pit only AFTER Yosef is sold!  Therefore, if Reuven
left the pit area, then certainly the brothers also must have
left that area.  Hence, it would only be logical to conclude
that the brothers are indeed eating away from the pit, and
Reuven must be eating with them!  
    After all, not joining them for lunch could raise their
suspicion.  Furthermore, the Torah never tells us that he left
his brothers.

	In summary, by considering the logic of Reuven's plan,
we conclude that Reuven most likely stayed with his brothers,
as they all sit down to eat AWAY from the pit. 
[Obviously, this interpretation does not follow popular
explanation that Reuven had left his brothers, as it was his
turn to take care of his father (see first opinion in Rashi).
In the Further Iyun section we discuss how and why our shiur
disagrees with that approach, and prefers the approach of
Rashbam and Chizkuni.]

PLAN C - YEHUDA'S PLAN / A 'QUICK BUCK'
	Now that we have supposed that Reuven and the brothers
are sitting down to eat at a distance far away from the pit,
we can continue our study of the narrative, to see if this
conclusion fits with its continuation:
"And the brothers sat down to eat, and they lifted up their
eyes and saw a caravan of Yishmaelim coming from the Gilad
carrying [spices]... to Egypt.  
    Then Yehuda said to his brothers, 'What do we gain by
killing our brother ... let us SELL him [instead] to the
Yishmaelim; after all, he is our brother, our own flesh, and
his brothers agreed" (37:25-27).
[From Yehuda's suggestion, it becomes clear that the brothers
truly planned to allow Yosef to die in the pit. and were
unaware of Reuven's intention to save him.]

	If indeed Reuven is still sitting with his brothers,
then this new plan (to sell Yosef) puts him in quite a
predicament; for if the brothers would sell Yosef, his own
plan to rescue him would be ruined.   Hence, the most logical
step for Reuven to take would be to either sneak away to the
'pit' - to get there before his brothers sell him, or possibly
to 'volunteer' to fetch Yosef from the pit, in order to free
him - and then explain to his brothers that Yosef had 'ran
away'. 
	Reuven does return to the pit in 37:29, but before the
Torah informs us of what happens when Reuven returns, we are
told first of something else that took place in the meantime:
"And a group of Midyanite TRADERS passed by, and THEY pulled,
and they lifted Yosef out of the pit, and THEY sold Yosef to
the Yishmaelim for twenty pieces of silver, and brought Yosef
to Egypt."  (see 37:28)
[Carefully read this pasuk again, noting the difference
between the Midyanim and Yishmaelim.]

	The startling fact about this pasuk is that the
brothers are never mentioned!  If our assumption above was
correct, it turns out that when the brothers (sitting far away
from the pit) were discussing the possibility of selling Yosef
to the Yishmaelim - it just so happened that the Midyanim got
there first!
	
	To appreciate the logic of this interpretation, we
must provide a little geographic background, which is
essential towards understanding what transpires in these
psukim.

THE ANCIENT TRADE ROUTE
	Recall that Yosef met his brothers while they were
grazing their sheep in the hilly area of Dotan (see 37:17),
north of Shechem.  Recall as well that during their meal, the
brothers 'lifted up their eyes' and noticed a caravan of
YISHMAELIM traveling down from the GILAD (today, the northern
mountain range in Jordan), on its way down to Egypt (see
37:25).
	Now, when we read this story in Chumash, most everyone
assumes that this convoy will soon pass nearby the spot where
the brothers are eating.  However, when we consider the
geography involved, it is more probable to arrive at a very
different conclusion! 
	This CARAVAN of Yishmaelim (camels et al.) most likely
should be traveling along the ancient trade route (better
known as the Via Maris), which crosses through Emek Yizrael
(the Jezreel Valley) on its way toward the Mediterranean
coast.  Therefore, this convoy, now sighted by the brothers as
it descends from the Gilad Mountains in Transjordan, must
first pass through the Bet She'an valley, continuing on
towards Afula and Megiddo in Emek Yizrael, on its way towards
the coast.  Certainly, it would NOT pass the hilly area of
Dotan, for it would make no sense for the caravan to climb the
Gilboa mountain range to cross through the Dotan area to reach
the coast.  Let's explain why.

	Dotan, today the area of Jenin (about 20 kilometers
north of Shechem) lies about 10 kilometers SOUTH of this main
highway (the Via Maris) as it crosses Emek Yizrael.  In
altitude, Dotan sits about 300-400 meters above Emek Yizrael.
Hence, from the hills of the Dotan/Gilboa area (where the
brothers are eating lunch), one can enjoy of both the Gilad
and parts of the Jezreel Valley, and could certainly identify
a large caravan traveling in the Jezreel Valley below.  
	This explains why the brothers are able to see a
Yishmaelite caravan (convoy) as it was descending from the
Gilad towards Bet She'an on its way to  Emek Yizrael.
However, even though they could see it, it was still far
enough away to allow the brothers ample time to meet it, when
it would pass by some ten kilometers to the north.  
    Therefore, in order to sell Yosef to that caravan, the
brothers would have to first fetch Yosef from the pit, and
then carry him on a short trip till they meet the caravan in
Emek Yizrael.  They have ample time to 'finish their meal', go
fetch Yosef from the pit in the 'midbar' (a kilometer or so
away), and then meet the convoy to sell Yosef.
 
SOMEBODY GOT THERE FIRST
	With this background, we now return to the story in
Chumash, while carefully noting the grammar of the next pasuk:
"And a group of Midyanite TRADERS passed by, and THEY pulled,
and they lifted Yosef out of the pit, and THEY sold Yosef to
the Yishmaelim for twenty pieces of silver, and brought Yosef
to Egypt."  (37:28)

	Based on the wording of this pasuk, it's quite clear
that the Midyanim and the Yishmaelim are two DIFFERENT groups
of people!  To support this, note how the Torah describes the
Midyanim as local 'traders' ("socharim"), while the Yishmaelim
are described as international 'movers' ("orchat Yishmaelim -
a transport caravan).  Hence, a simple reading of this pasuk
implies that a group of Midyanite traders happened to pass by
the pit (they most probably heard Yosef screaming), and pulled
him out.  As these Midyanim are 'traders', they were probably
on their way to sell their wares (now including Yosef) to the
Yishmaelite caravan. 
	If this explanation is correct, then the MIDYANIM
themselves pulled Yosef out of the pit and sold him.  [After
all, the brothers are never mentioned in this pasuk.] 
[This interpretation also explains why the Torah needs to tell
us about both MIDYANIM and YISHMAELIM, for understanding that
these are two DIFFERENT groups is a critical factor in the
story, and not just an incidental detail.]

DID REUVEN GET THERE 'FIRST' OR 'LAST'?
	So where were the brothers during all of this?  Most
probably, still eating!  Recall our explanation above: the
brothers had thrown Yosef into a pit out in the 'midbar' and
returned to their grazing area to eat.  They are far enough
away that they do not see or hear what transpired between
Yosef and the Midyanim!
	And WHERE was Reuven?  Again, as we explained above,
he must have been eating WITH his brothers.  However, as soon
as he heard Yehuda's new plan (and the brothers' agreement) to
sell Yosef, he would have to get back to the pit (before his
brothers) to save Yosef - and that's exactly what he does!
[But it's too late.]  Note how this explanation fits perfectly
into the next pasuk: 
"And Reuven RETURNED ("va-yashov Revuen el ha'bor") to the
pit, and behold, Yosef was no longer in the pit!;
		Then, he tore his clothes."    (see 37:29)

	Reuven is not the LAST brother to find out that Yosef
was sold (as commonly assumed).  Rather, he is the FIRST
brother to recognize that Yosef is missing!
	What can Reuven do?  Shocked, he immediately returns
to his brothers [probably by now eating dessert] with the
terrible news:
"And he RETURNED ['va-yashov'] to his brothers and said, 'The
boy is gone!  And for myself, what am I going to do?" (37:30).


	Note the word 'va-yashov' [and Reuven RETURNED] in
both 37:29 and 37:30.  This verb proves that the brothers
could not have been eating near the pit, for if so, Reuven
would not need to 'RETURN' to them.  However, based on our
explanation above, 'va-yashov' in both psukim makes perfect
sense.  Since Reuven and his brothers are eating away from the
pit, Reuven must first RETURN to the pit, then he must RETURN
back to his brothers to tell them the news - hence TWICE the
verb 'va-yashov'!
[This also explains why the brothers don't answer Reuven by
informing him that they sold him.  Instead, the brothers seem
to be no less in shock than Reuven himself.]
	
WHAT DO THE BROTHERS THINK?
	At this point in the story the brothers must be
totally baffled, for they have no idea what happened to Yosef.
If he escaped from the pit, then he probably would have ran
back home and in a short time, the brothers would hear about
it.  But he doesn't return home, and hence they most probably
assume that he was eaten by an animal.  Note that in all of
their conversations with Yosef in Egypt, the consistently
claim "ha'echad eineno" [one (brother) is missing]; yet they
never say that he was sold.
[See 42:13 and 42:32.  See also 43:7, noting how the brothers
we definitely asked these questions during interrogation -
hence it would have been difficult for them to lie about what
happened to their other brother, nor would they have any
reason to lie about his fate, or time to corroborate the same
story beforehand.]

    Once the brothers realize that Yosef is gone, they also
don't want their father to think that he may lost, nor would
they want their father to accuse them of killing him - so they
plot once again.  They cleverly decide to trick their father
into thinking that Yosef had been killed by a wild animal on
his way to visit them, by dipping Yosef's coat in blood and
sending it ahead to their father (see 37:31-32).  Their plan
works, as when Yaakov sees the coat he laments:
"My son's  coat -"CHAYA RA'A ACHALATU; tarof, taraf Yosef" -
- he was surely devoured by a wild beast  (37:33). 

	By doing so, they cause their father to take personal
blame for Yosef's death; after all, it was Yaakov's idea to
send Yosef on the 'dangerous journey' from Hebron to Shchem.
	Ironically, the end result of this final plan echoes
the brothers' original plan (see 37:20 "ve-amarnu - chaya ra'a
achalatu" & compare with 37:33).  Yaakov reaches the
conclusion that the brothers wanted, but they themselves have
no idea what happened!
	Even more ironic is how the brothers final plan 'to
sell Yosef' came true, even though they never sold him; and
how (they thought that) their original plan - for Yosef to die
- came true, even though they never killed him. 
	In retrospect, one could even suggest that the
brothers may have never been able to 'gather the courage' to
either kill or sell Yosef.  Despite their various plans and
intense hatred of Yosef, just as they had quickly retracted
from their first two plans to kill Yosef (see 37:22 & 26),
they most probably would have retracted from their plan to
sell him as well.  
    Nevertheless: they talked; they planned; they plotted -
and in God's eyes - are considered guilty, even though they
never actually killed or sold Yosef.

WHAT DOES YOSEF THINK?
	So far, our explanation has followed interpretation
suggested by Rashbam and Chizkuni.  [I recommend that you read
their commentaries and note how they reach the same conclusion
regarding who sold Yosef, even though they don't explain the
events in the manner that we did.]
	Even though this interpretation seems to explain the
psukim in Parshat Va'yeshev quite well, there is a pasuk in
Parshat Vayigash that seems to 'ruin' this entire approach.
When Yosef finally reveals himself to his brothers, he states
explicitly:
"I am Yosef your brother, whom you SOLD to Egypt"(45:4)

	Based on this statement, it's quite clear that Yosef
himself thinks that his brothers SOLD him!  But if our above
interpretation is correct, Yosef should have thought that the
Midyanim had sold him, and not his brothers!  In fact, this
pasuk is most probably the primary basis for the more popular
interpretation (advanced by Rashi and Radak - see Further Iyun
section) that the brothers indeed did sell Yosef. 
	The Chizkuni, bothered by this pasuk, explains that
Yosef knows that the Midyanites sold him, but since the
brothers threw him in the pit, it was the brothers "who CAUSED
me to be sold to Egypt".  
	Alternately, one could explain, based on the above
shiur that Yosef truly did think that his brothers had sold
him, even though the brothers themselves had no idea
concerning what really happened.
	To explain why, let's consider these events from
Yosef's perspective.
	Yosef was not aware of any of the brothers'
conversations.  All that he knew was that, as soon as he
arrived, his brothers took off his coat and threw him into the
pit.  A short time later, some Midyanim passed by, took him
out of the pit, and sold him to the Yishmaelim who, later,
sold him to the Egyptians.  Yosef, trying to piece together
what had happened, probably assumed that his brothers had set
it all up beforehand.  In other words, he thought that the
brothers told the Midyanim that they had thrown Yosef in a
certain pit, and that they should take him from there to sell
to the Yishmaelim. 
	If so, then Yosef was totally unaware that it was only
'by chance' that the Midyanim were passing by, nor did he
think that the brothers originally wanted him to die in the
pit.  Rather, he thought all along that his brothers had sold
him, even though they had no idea what had happened. 
    In next week's shiur, we will see how this understanding
can help us understand Yosef's behavior during his many years
in Egypt. It will also explain why the brothers assume that
Yosef is either missing (see 42:13) or dead (see 42:22 -"hineh
gam damo nidrash"), even though Yosef thinks that his brothers
sold him (see 45:4).
[Furthermore, this interpretation also explains why Yosef
tells his cellmates (in prison) that he was 'stolen' from the
Land of Ivrim (see 40:15).]

WHAT DOES GOD THINK
	Even though the brothers had three different plans for
'getting rid' of Yosef, God had a different plan.
	The Hand of Providence led the brothers to believe
that THEIR 'dream' [to rid themselves of Yosef] had come true.
In reality, it was their plotting that eventually led to the
fulfillment of Yosef's dreams to come true.
	Finally, as will be seen in the story that follows,
this was all part of God's long-term plan for the people of
Israel to become a nation in the Land of Egypt, as the
forecasts of "brit bein ha'btarim" slowly begin to unfold, in
a manner that Avraham Avinu would have never dreamt.
						shabbat
shalom,
						menachem

FOR FURTHER IYUN 
================
A.  THE HAFTARA - [WHAT AMOS THOUGHT]
    According to the Haftara for Parshat Vayeshev, from Amos
chapters 1 & 2, it would seem that the navi thinks that the
brothers sold Yosef, as it states:
"Thus saith the LORD: For three transgressions of Israel, yea,
for four, I will not reverse it: - 'al michram b'kesef
tzadik...' - because they sell the righteous [one?] for money,
and the needy for a pair of shoes..." (see Amos 2:5-6)

	However, a closer study of Sefer Amos shows that the
navi is not talking about Yosef and his brothers, rather - he
is complaining about the people of Israel at that time.  In
other words, Israel is not being punished for the sins of
their forefathers, rather they are being punished for their
own sins.  To prove this, simply note this very same theme in
Amos chapter 8:
"Hear this, you that would swallow the needy, and destroy the
poor of the land, Saying: 'When will the new moon be gone,
that we may sell grain? and the sabbath, that we may set forth
corn? making the ephah [a dry measure]  small, and the shekel
great, and falsifying the balances of deceit; 
 - 'lknot b'kessef dalim, v'evyon b'aavur naalaim" (compare
with 2:6) - so that we may buy the poor for money, and the
needy for a pair of shoes... "  (see Amos 8:4-6) 

	The navi may intentionally employ a phrase that may
'echo' how the brothers treated Yosef, maybe to emphasize how
Am Yisrael was supposed to learn from the stories of Chumash
how 'not' to act - but surely, his primary complaint is about
the behavior of his own generation.


B. RASHI'S SHITTA
	To explain Rashi's 'shitta' (opinion) that the
brothers sold Yosef, we must return to the two questions
raised earlier in the shiur: i.e. where are the brothers
eating, and where Reuven is - and change our conclusions.
	According to this opinion, the brothers sat down to
eat nearby the pit, and for some reason (see below) Reuven
left them.  
	Then, there are two ways to explain what happened
next.  Either when the Midyanim came by, the brothers employed
their services as 'middlemen' to sell Yosef to the Yishmaelim
(see Rashbam's second explanation), OR possibly, the term
Yishmaelim is synonymous with the term Midyanim (see Radak).

	To explain why Reuven had left his brothers, Rashi
offers two reasons- either he went 'home' to take care of his
father, or he had taken a short walk to do some
'soul-searching' (see Rashi & Radak).

	Re: Rashi's quote of the Midrash that it was Reuven's
turn to go home to take care of his father, it would be
difficult to consider this pshat, for it's over 100 kilometers
from Hebron to Dotan, and hence it would be totally against
Reuven's own plan to save Yosef, from him to leave his
brothers at a time like this!
    One could suggest that this Midrash is not coming to
explain pshat about what 'happened', but rather gives us
insight regarding how 'frum' the brothers were, and the fact
that they cared about the mitzvah of  'kibud av', but their
hatred of Yosef was much greater than their love for their
father.
	If so, what point is this Midrash making regarding the
nature of 'sin'at achim'.
	Rashi's second opinion, that Reuven was 'fasting', may
relate to Reuven's own plan - as discussed below:

C. WHAT'S IN IT FOR REUVEN!
    For some reason, Reuven is interested in saving Yosef.
Why does Reuven suddenly become so dedicated to his father?
	One could suggest that Yaakov was quite angry with
Reuven since the incident with Bilha (see 35:22), after which
he was most likely cursed by his father (see 49:4), and hence
lost his 'bechora'.  Reuven may have hoped that by saving
Yosef from the brothers, he would 'prove himself' once again
worthy to his father.  This would explain his reaction when he
tells his brothers that Yosef is missing - "va-ani ana ani
ba".  This was his big chance to redeem himself.  Now, it only
looks worse for him.  After all, should Yaakov find out what
happened, bottom line, it was Reuven's idea to throw him in
the pit!  For Reuven, this could have been 'strike three'!
[Just a thought.] 

D. WHY THE BROTHERS HATED YOSEF
    One could suggest that the brothers' hatred of Yosef may
have been more than just 'petty sibling jealousy'.
Considering that they all realized that they were a chosen
family, with great goals for their future, and also realizing
that in previous generations, certain children were chosen,
and others 'rejected' - they may have felt that it was their
spiritual 'responsibility' to 'expel' Yosef from this 'chosen
family', considering his behavior.
    Examine Yosef's dreams.  Compare them to Yitzchak's
original bracha to Eisav /Yaakov, and the standard blessing of
bechira.
    How would this confirm the brothers' fear? Do the brothers
have reason to believe that Yaakov is making a mistake by
favoring Yosef?  Do they have a precedent for 'intervening'?
    



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